Danny Daphnis, PhD, Scientific Director at Mediterranean Fertility Institute in Greece, is discussing the 3-parent baby technique (mitochondrial transfer) and the controversy around it.
At the moment, as I said different countries do it in different modes. For example, if you’re in the UK, they don’t consider it for oocyte donation. They only do it if you have a mitochondria genetic disease. In Greece, the clinic which does it considers only ladies below 40 years of age who have had multiple IVF attempts and they have eggs to be retrieved. You need to have eggs in order to do this. If you don’t have eggs, if you cannot produce eggs, there is no way they can find eggs for you. We need as many eggs as possible to take the nucleus out and put it back into the donor’s egg so at the moment in Greece, the clinic only looks at patients under forty years of age, specific multiple IVF failures but you have to have eggs.
In Ukraine, I think that has broadened the horizon and you’re able to do it because they do the PNT (pronuclei transfer) but again I don’t know the exact guidelines. In Mexico, you can do almost anything but I think that they have a limit of 45 at the moment. PRP, if you’re not familiar with it, it’s the ovarian rejuvenation. There are two different techniques. PRP will, hopefully, help you achieve more follicles which means more eggs, which means, hopefully, you have a more broad broader section.
However, I must stress this, in Greece for example, at the moment, they’re doing it as part of the research. They don’t do it when going into the program and I think you don’t even pay the amount of money that they’re thinking of charging if it goes into the public. Be aware that, at the moment, it’s done mostly research-wise and not so much in routine. It’s very new and it’s not something very easily performed.
The reason is simple. They need your eggs. Patients need to remember that if you’re doing it instead of oocyte donation, you must have your own eggs. If you don’t have eggs, where are they going to find the nucleus to transfer it to the donor’s eggs? It’s as simple as that they need your eggs. You need to have as many eggs as possible in order to get your nucleus and transfer it and fuse it into the donor’s eggs. That’s why in Kyiv they did not accept you. It’s not because they didn’t want you to do it; it’s because they needed your eggs. If your AMH is zero and you’re in menopause, you do not have eggs.
PRP works for around 40-45% of the patients. It is patient specific. You cannot foresee if it’s going to work because it’s your own blood, your own platelets inside your own body and which are infused inside your own ovaries. If it’s going to work and if your AMH increases, if your antra follicular count increases and you hopefully get eggs, yes, it can take place. But, again, I’m stressing this whichever clinic does it, it requires eggs, your eggs which will have the nucleus removed in order to put it to the cytoplasm. I’m guessing, at the moment, you won’t get what you want because, at the moment, we don’t have the technology to take the nucleus from your skin cell, for example, and transfer it to the donor’s eggs. In Greece, for this research, they’re not allowing any patients over 40 years of age. Unfortunately, they want only ladies below 40 years of age who produce eggs.
No, we don’t do that. We don’t operate this at the moment. It still hasn’t passed in the Greek HFA if I could call it like that. The clinic which did it in Greece has created some problems in the law by doing it but they passed it as research. Again, it’s not very clear how it’s going to work. You can apply either to Kyiv in Ukraine if you want it with oocyte donation or to the clinic in Athens. This is, unfortunately, something that needs to be researched. At the moment, Mexico and Ukraine are the easiest to access places to do it.
A good candidate for this treatment is, as I mentioned in my slides, the best candidate is a patient who has oocytes but they’re poor quality. They’re ladies who have done many IVFs before, who have some oocytes even if it’s 3-4 oocytes, we can get these oocytes, remove the nucleus, put it into donor eggs and hopefully get a nice embryo. Apart from if you have a mitochondrial genetic disease, of course, that’s that goes without saying, but it’s for patients who have the ability to produce at least some eggs and then going forward using those eggs infusing them with donor eggs.
You can do it. That is I think the main aspect. If you go to IVMED in Kyiv, they’re doing it and they don’t have an age restriction at the moment. They just want to see the AMH, they want to see that you have eggs so the age restriction up to 40 is only for the clinics in Greece. If you research Mexico or Kyiv, I’m sure they might be able to help you. For example, if you are 40 and have had 21 eggs retrieved I think that is spectacular. I think the clinic agrees to treat patients who produce eggs. Because the more eggs you produce the more chances of getting the embryo that they want. In your case, it is a possibility that you are creating eggs that are not of good quality either for cytoplasmic reasons or mitochondrial reasons. They’re not giving you your baby. I think you are probably the best candidate for an MRT procedure in these programs.
There is no price at the moment. I don’t know how much they charge in Mexico. But it’s definitely much more expensive. In Greece, you only pay for an egg donation cycle because it’s part of a research program but as I said they have quite a bit of limitation. The other clinics, in other countries which have the legislation a little bit broader I’m sure they will have more expensive prices in that.
First of all, the most important thing that you care about is the genotype. The phenotype is what we look like, it’s our outside characteristics. The most important thing is that the resulting child has the genotype of the mother and subsequently the phenotype is regulated by the genotype of the mother, the genetic mother and the genetic father. I think you wanted to ask if the child has the genotype because that’s the most important thing. It is what I said in my slide which says “keep the genes” because the genotype is the one that regulates the phenotype, what we look like. If it has the genotype of the mother, then most likely it’s going to have the phenotype of the mother, the genetic mother and the genetic father.
Aat the moment no but that’s why we’re very cautious. As I said there are very few children being born reported. I doubt there more than five children. However, they have not found a specific problem that can be linked. The number is too small. They have noted that some variations, however, these numbers are so small and cannot be attributed to the actual procedure or two, maybe, IVF. That is the biggest question at the moment, but it cannot be answered because of the very low numbers.
It’s like a donor cycle so you get a 50-60% and whatever number each clinic gives you as a success rate.
Again, as I said, there are very small numbers and when they did this back in the USA, you’re talking about quite many years back. It has changed quite a bit. The actual procedure is not the same as it was 17 years ago. Thank you for the comment. I can see you’re quite read on the subject. But we have to be very careful as you all know it’s something quite new. We don’t know the effects if we don’t have the correct numbers. Hopefully, my belief is it’s going to help people rather than hinder people. I’m more for the necessity rather than the controversy. I am pro the technique. However, I have to be cautious because we don’t have so much information at the moment.
No, actually they don’t. First of all, I don’t know about obesity. Again, it can be one of the variations. However, there’s no specific match. It’s like a donor cycle so you don’t have to be matched. You can’t match mitochondria from one person to another. They’re completely different. As I said before, mitochondria carry their own DNA that’s why we call it empty DNA so there’s no match as such. What we do want to match if you want is that you have the egg donor and the mother matched in the way that we don’t have any problems, e.g. matching blood groups, Rhesus, stuff like that which again do not have an effect but that’s what they’re trying to do.
What I urge patients is to be careful. I know you want to have your dream which is a baby but it is something which is still experimental. As an embryologist, as a scientist, I was actually able to witness and then be part of the technique in a couple of patients and I saw that it’s something which is doable. I was very happy. I thought this is what we want to do, this is our future. But, on the other hand, my first thought was when we transfer the embryos back to the patient was what did we just do? Do we know what we just did? What I’m saying is that as I said before I’m very pro this technique and I think it’s going to help us. We just have to be sure that it doesn’t have a negative effect on all of us at the end of the day because we are, excuse my language, messing with our DNA.
In one way or another, it’s going to help us and, hopefully, we’re going to use it to clone organs rather than people, rather than humans, hopefully, we’re going to learn how to clone and parts of our body in order to be able to do the transplants to help us. If cloning is going to be performed on humans and that’s going to be quite controversial. I don’t know what’s the positive effect of having a second Danny, for example. I think cloning in some extent will help us and not necessarily cloning humans.
Yes, they’re doing it on many animals but people don’t know about it because it’s easier. It doesn’t work, it’s not an easy procedure, it’s quite expensive still but, yes, I’m sure they are doing it on many animals.